I also caution that we do not know who is going to take his place and how it will work. I have read reports coming out of Egypt that mainstream news is ignoring and then that makes it harder to find the truth. What I have read is thousands of Christian people being forced out of Egypt. Including police officers, not just regular folk. If that is true - what on earth have we done there? We helped get rid of Mubarek and then the news just kind of slowly faded away. Why? Is it really that boring to report on the building of a new country (basically), or is it that they dont want to report on what's really going on over there? Who knows. We sure as heck don't.
And to think - some of these evil leaders were actually put into power by US. as in all of us (not just the US). We helped with some coups and then some of these guys and their subsequent family members got into power and then 30-40 years later we are taking them out and calling for a replacement.
Just be wary while celebrating the death of the Libyan leader. All is not always what it seems. And it will most likely take a long time to sort out and we have absolutely no way of knowing who will come in next and what they will be like. Reminds me of learning about Hitler. He did not rise through the ranks proclaiming his REAL beliefs. He gained the respect and trust of millions of people, and at the same time sealed their fate before they knew what was happening, and then his true wishes for murdering millions of people came to light. When it was too late. Do you think Hitler stood at a podium 20 years before he became leader and said "I am going to wipe out the Jews and take over Europe" and then all the german people cheered? Of course they didn't!! He fed them what they wanted to hear, promised them the moon, promised to help the poor and needy, promised everything and then tied it all up in a nice little bow before blowing the box wide open. And brainwashing people while he was at it. We have to be very careful about what's going on. We are a world away and pretend we know what it's like over there, when we cannot even begin to imagine what life is like for those people.
They are cheering that MG is gone - but who will be next? Will he magically be better or will it just appear that way on the surface for awhile? The US found Hussein and he was not murdered, he was taken in and passed on to his country for their laws and trial. I doubted he stood any sort of chance but at least it was done 'the right way' as much as we could handle.... The same is not true for MG and when we do not know the circumstances under which he was killed, we should be a little careful about what we cheer about. On the other hand, his own people took him out and if that's what they wanted to do then fine. But what kind of outrage happens over here when a leader is shot? The current US president has a very low performance rating right now, Canadians like to point out that less than half of them voted for any form of conservative govt so Harper is not exactly on strong ground either - he gets called Hitler by some of my liberal friends all the time in fact. So if someone were to shoot him and drag his body around, would we cheer about that? If not - why not? We cheered about MG without truly knowing the facts. You could say that the US and Canada and other countries are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths too over the past 20 years in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc (enemy combatants AND civilians) - so maybe they should cheer if our leaders get knocked off as well. Would we look at it in the same way and support their cheers? Highly unlikely. So let's put the shoe on the other foot once in awhile eh?
*** Update Oct 23/11
In light of a comment on my post, I thought I should point out that I am not alone in my thinking by far. I just read an article in the Globe and Mail regarding Canada's commitment to Libya and the liberal and ndp supporters are posting comments full force against Harper for joining this mission and setting up even before NATO was in agreement. There are almost 700 comments on the article as I write this and the first page I read was full of disdain for how Gadhafi was taken down, derision against people celebrating it, potshots at Harper, and warnings about who is in line to replace him - along with reminders that his supporters were of the largest tribe in Libya so what's going to happen with them now. More bloodshed? We just don't know. So I am not alone in my message of 'be careful what you wish for'.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-turns-commitment-into-clout-in-libya/article2210169/comments/
I am still unclear as to why Canada joined in the ganging up on OQ but was no where near sending in the air force in Iran when protesters there were being suppressed or in Syria. If one is for intervention then be careful about selective moral outrage as I can see no argument that Libya is/was worse than any other place or that the 'protesters' were/are any more valuable/important/moral than those in other dictatorships.
ReplyDeleteI am not celebrating OQ's demise, don't mind it but I see no reason to celebrate what is the result of selective umbrage and indignation. All or none are the only two supportable positions and this is neither.
Whether a Saddam or a Muammar is dispatched before the formality of a trial might be cause for celebration simply because trials, especially high profile ones, tend to be more about the process than the alleged crimes. Such tyrants live by the sword so shouldn't even get the opportunity to star in drawn-out legalistic dramas leading eventually to clean, painless executions. Despite their rants we don't actually expect our Liberal friends to applaud should Bush or Harper be murdered by a fanatic of any stripe. If we conservatives can refrain from cheering when a mass murderer of babies is shot the notion that there could be any moral equivalence between us and those who celebrate the atrocities of tyrants and jihadis has to be rejected.
ReplyDeleteAh yes, however, some of my Liberal friends' favorite groups, like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch proclaimed their distaste at Hussein's death penalty, clean and painless or not, which my friends seem to have forgotten or ignored.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/12/29/iraq-saddam-hussein-put-death
https://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE14/044/2006/en/a85375ab-d34c-11dd-a329-2f46302a8cc6/mde140442006en.html
While discussing tyrants, one might have to consider just how many 'babies' or other innocent civilians have been killed during these past decades of fighting - at our countries' hands. If you lived in Pakistan and your family was killed in a US air strike, who might you add to your 'list of tyrants'?
Personally, I might think that the whole lot of leaders in the middle east, much of asia, and the former USSR need to be eradicated, disposed of somehow rather than just deposed. I might have secret fantasies that the movies I have watched with covert assassins came true and every last one of those leaders was wiped out overnight. In fact, I might whole-heartedly support such missions seeing as that should result in the least number of civilian casualties by far. But that is not how it has worked at all unfortunately so they remain my fantasies (not-so-secret now).
I don't expect my Liberal friends to applaud Bush or Harper being murdered - however I would not be surprised. They want them tried as war criminals and I have heard numerous friends and aquaintances say that it's too bad some crackpot didn't come along and assassinate them. I've been quite shocked at what I have heard and read from people I know over the past several years. Perhaps you should pay more attention. Maybe they just think they would be thrilled, or would say 'he deserved it, the b*st*rd', but would actually be freaked out if it happened - but all I can go on for now is their own word. And it's not pretty.
There are movies and youtube clips showing george bush in any number of assasination scenarios. Im sure there are of many presidents, not just Republican ones. But it's not exactly a stretch to think that there would have been a great number of people out cheering the death of Bush had it happened - though they may have suffered a beat-down if going too public. Hard to say on that score, it's all just conjecture. Bush hasnt been president for almost 3 years now and there are still games and videos being published online showing his death and people watch, play, and laugh. So I don't really think that we are as far removed from the 'tyrants' and 'jihadis' as we like to think. We think we are more civilized but we actually might be worse because we have so-called Freedom of Speech unlike so many other countries in this world. And there is some nasty nasty stuff out there about our leaders that you just cannot find anywhere else because they are not allowed or may find themselves being dragged out of bed in the middle of the night.
I just say to err on the cautious side. Celebrate the removal of Gadhaffi, no matter the method, but don't hold your breath that something magical is going to take hold in Libya. Or Syria once that is dealt with. Or Sudan, or Somalia, or Egypt. That's really what this post has been about.